Morrissey covers are being sent to the Vet Shut-in. I have a few, as I have a few karchers, just in the name of being "complete."

Got your last e-mail--any time in the future is fine, just as soon see it after all the holidays.

A Very HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!

Rich,

Did the Decatur Chapter produce any arctic covers (at/in the arctic, not before depature or upon return) after the Archerfish?

Bruce, My e-mail addy is jake@capecodmouse.com
you are more than welcome to give it to her.

Chas.Henry, Kind of thought you might appreciate the "Canoe" photos, yes they were taken from the VF, some off Korean waters in '51-'52-'53, others while she was doing ASW exercises and others from her tours in Nam

Richard Jones, my brother in law, the retired Master Chief was telling me the same thing about the JFK on Christmas Day, as thirty years in Uncle Sam's Canoe Club wasn't enough for him, he's back at his old trade working on Sonar Equipment for the Navy in Jacksonville and over at Pascagoula

Thanks for all the help!!!!!

Thanks. May I forward your email address to Miz Mary?

Bruce

Here I go, embracing the Tar Baby: may I have your opinions on an ancient add-on?

I have several 1935 covers with 1937 Xmas Seals pasted over the delivery address. (Some on eBay if you want to see pix.) The seals come off cleanly with a damp sponge.

Should I, or should I not, remove the 1937 add-ons from 1935 covers? Does the Xmas Seal add value, or detract? How about 1940 Wildlife Fund seals, or 1956 Boys Town seals, on the same 1935 covers?

At present I plan to leave the Xmas Seals (cataloged in Scott) and the Wildlife Seals (very attractive) and remove the others. Wadda ya tink?

Bruce

Once the MEU is formed, completes pre-deployment training and is designated special operations capable (SOC), it provides geographic combatant commanders a potent, highly adaptive, rapid reaction force capable of conducting multiple and concurrent missions in support of a spectrum of operations, in virtually any environment.

The 26th MEU will deploy aboard U.S. Navy ships as part of the Kearsarge Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG). The ships of the Kearsarge Expeditionary Strike Group will include, in addition to the USS Kearsarge (LHD-3), the Ashland (LSD-48), Ponce (LPD-15), Gonzalez (DDG-66), Normandy (CG-60), Kauffman (FFG-59) and Scranton (SSN-756).

Do you have an aircraft carrier circuit coming out soon???

Here is a few photos that should bring back some fond memories, forgot i had them filed away
http://www.capecodmouse.com/temp/sneeky/Destroyers/Destroyers.html

Next: Have you all hear or read that sometime in 2005, the Red Chinese Navy and Air Forces are to hold joint exercises with the Russian(Comminist?) avy and Air Forces somewhere in the interior?

U.S. Pacific Command has established a forward command element at the military base at Utapao, Thailand. These servicemembers are establishing a command, control and communication structure for Joint Task Force 536. The JTF will coordinate U.S. relief efforts.

Thanks!!!!!

Larry

Hi Guys:
Got my USS TAYLOR pictorial request returned un serviced. The P.M. said they did not have the cancel that was listed in the Postal Bulletin???

My brother in law was part of the commissioning crew of the Spruance, he was Master Chief SonarTech

Fortunately, I got them back in time to forward to Pascagoula for a USPS cancel.

Lots of interesting emotional chatter about add-ons. I'll bet that wherever Morrissey is, he's laughing his ass off!!!

Thanks!

The Nautilus cover is a very, very attractive cover. How do I know it's an add-on cachet (I assume of recent times?)?

URL: http://www.uscs.org/naut.htm

Received this note in today's email. My specialty is pre-WW2, so can someone else help Miz Mary?

"Good Evening! My son, who is currently in the US Navy and serves on the USS Spruance (DD-963) is the reason I am interested in this ship [cover.] This ship will be de-commissioned in March of 2005. Would you please keep my name and email address in the event a postcard is issued for this ship's decommissioning. Also, he will be transferring to the USS The Sullivans. Do you have a postcard for that ship for the day it was commissioned? Thanks! Mary"

Thanks.

Bruce

My apologies. Won't do it again. I have been told that Henry is an active USCS expert in USN China postmarks, and I thought to reach him this way. I really hope there's nothing wrong on his end, just a communication problem.

Bruce

Read the Philatelic Code of Ethics in the USCS Handbook. Doesn't Number 7 address your concerns?

"On December 3, 1974, Charles Riser, doing business under the name Andromeda Covers, pleaded guilty to mail fraud charges after being caught by U.S. Postal authorities in a sting operation. It was alleged he had forged postmarks, cachets and autographs on space-related philatelic covers."

Apparently, the U.S. Postal Service feels forged cachets are as wrong as forged autographs and forged postmarks.

Looks like an interesting time around this page over the holiday weekend. My machine was taken over by the teenage girls -- an Ipod will do that. Interesting exchanges about add on/fantasy cachets. If we cant' agree can we at least agree that the indication of the add on must be placed on the front of the cover -- along with the cachet to ensure the integrity for future buyers. It's too much to expect that e-bay or every auctioneer will have the note, printed on the back, included in each description.

Freedom of speech is a a great concept. Larry LaFoe hit on an interesting point; we have far more covers, particularly from the 1930s, than there are interested collectors. The interest is decreasing not increasing, unfortunately.

G'nite Gentlemen

There is only one cover up right now over the, at least in Naval Cover Catagory, but believe there may be some up under Covers Events.

Nope that wasn't me, in fact right now I'm not doing that much on E-Bay and what I do is mostly buying there for the last year, as I'm selling over on Stampoffers.Com

Maybe we can hook up if I get out there.

Was thinking the same thing with Chas.Henry as think he said he was in the Scaramento area???

Think I told you before we were the hosts for this years VF reunion, so it was held here on the Cape, next year it will be in Scarmento, hope to travel out there if at all possible.
'06 reunuion will be in Branson,Mo.

Don't you bother with books anymore? I find them a useful adjunct myself.

I read the same thing somewhere in the last month or so. Not sure if it will come about as there are a number of groups that help support the Cove, one big one being the TCS right here in Mass.

Hows things in Kocokmo

I copied the definition of cachet directly from dictionary.com

People still own hardcopy books? ;-)

These are my beliefs... it's not an atack against you or anyone for that matter. I just believe that is a member does something to deceive another member (including add-on cachets that are not properly identified), then that members shouldn't be part of the USCS.

Your misreading my posts and my behaviour. I've not said anything about me being right and that everyone else is wrong, I'm just stating my beliefs. Nothing personal has been said or directed to/at anyone. It is nothing more than a debate and thus far have only heard the ONLY reason why people believe they can and should be able to add-on a cachet to ANY cover is that they OWN it. No one has mentioned anything about who is responsible for these "fantasy" covers once they become available on the secondary market.

I've never known cachet to mean to "add value"... it's purest form means to press from the French word cacher?

It's updated meaning, relative to philately, is:
1. A commemorative design stamped on an envelope to mark a postal or philatelic event.

2. A motto forming part of a postal cancellation.

So, you're saying it's okay to buy a cover from September 2, 1945, from Tokyo Bay with a newly added cachet by someone of the famous signing during the surrender of Japan... even though, if done properly could easily add $100s of dollars to the value of the cover?

It's okay for me to add a simple little typewritten "Midway Island" notation to any cover I find dated between June 4-7, 1942?

It's okay for me to "replicate" a well-known cachet by another cachet maker onto another cover?

It's okay to add Sitka, Alaska to a 4-bar postmark absent of any markings?

If you spent $50 on a cover that was worth $2 before someone added a cachet 50 years later thinking it was contemporary to the period and subsequently found out it was a recent addition (HISTORY), would you sell it for the $5-10 it's now worth or would you let the next buyer decide?

It appears my expectations of a higher standard of ethics is a moot point since the practice is already so embedded in the hobby and collusion is at the highest levels.

This discussion is simple to me... additions to covers are "fantasy" pieces and are deceptive practices. As such, any member caught doing such should not be a member of the USCS.

Would we all not agree that adding a stamp to a cover is a "fantasy" cover (e.g., adding a zeppelin to an airmail cover)? Would we all not agree that adding a postmark to a cover is a "fantasy" cover (e.g., registered cancel to a non-registered cover)?

Then why is adding a cachet to a cover that originally did not have a cachet and the person that originally produced the cover had no intention of adding a cachet... not a "fantasy" cover?

It was worth a try to try to preserve the integrity of the hobby. Since it's too late for that, I'll just read as much as possible to become more knowledgeable of naval covers and try my best not to buy or sell a "fantasy" cachet.

I'm sure the offenders will miss this analogy, but here it is anyway: If I don't speed on the highway and you and some of your friends do... eventually it becomes the norm. If I say, we shouldn't speed, you'll say: "If speeding was such a bad thing, then they should have stopped the practice when so-and-so did it. I didn't start speeding until decades after others began speeding and only then after the passengers in my car asked me to start speeding. As a matter of fact policemen and politicians speed. The next time your on the road, you can see people speed." The reality is we all know it's WRONG... speeding and purposefully creating "fantasy" cachets... but it's become acceptable to those that benefit and ignored by those it doesn't affect.

I've received enough e-mails from USCS members to know that this is not an acceptable practice. BUT, it's such a hot button that no one is willing to upset the few to serve the many.

I see your mermaids everywhere, both your modern one's and the vintage one's you've added cachets to with markings on the front of the cachets and on the back of the covers. I've met or bought from all the dealers you mention. Again, I'm just addressing the deceptive practice of add-on cachets.

Aside from the labeling issue, I have no other problem with anyone making add on cachets to sell, or for thier personal consumption.

I have hundreds of such cachets in my personal naval and FDOI collections by other add on cachet artists who made them decades before I ever made my first one, three years ago. Some in my collection are labeled, some are not. If there was not a market for them, I, nor anyone else would have never made them to bigin with,or no one would buy them. In fact, I was asked to add cachets to covers by USCS naval and AFDCS FDOI collectors who had un-cacheted covers way before I ever made my first one to sell. And I continue to get covers from collectors who want me to add my artwork to their covers on a regular basis from both USC members and AFDCS members.

There are folks in this chat room who buy my add on cachets, and who have sent me covers to add cachets to. All of our most prominant USCS dealer members have at one time or another knowingly sold me uncacheted naval covers for the purpose of adding cachets, and who seeminlgy have no problem with the practice as long as the covers are labeled. Two of them even buy them back from me to re-sell. These two particular USCS member dealers also collect some of my add ons for their collections, and have sent me covers from their personal collections to add cachets to.

Thanks!

Please contact me re: eBay LUZON cover. You've had the cover several weeks now. Please pay me, or return it.

Bruce Liddell
bdliddell@yahoo.com

Thanks... so Crosby had a series of printed cachets for Highjump, but there were no printed cachet series for Deep Freeze... correct? I assume nothing for Windmill?

Sheraton Premiere at Tysons Corner
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AMERICOVER rate is $89.00 per night

50th Annual AFDCS Convention and Exhibition

Then why doesn't the board add that to a "Code of Ethics"? Any member caught adding cachets without "plainly" marking them as a "fantasy" cachet shall be removed from the rolls of the USCS.

I'm still talking about those that add cachets without marking the cover. This is what I've always been talking about, but the topic always goes off on a tangent (seemingly to confuse the issue?).

This is just my opinion.

Don

This is just my opinion.

Don

I’m primarily discussing covers that were produced long before the cachet maker adds his or her cachet. Why would anyone want to add a cachet to a cover they didn't generate, other than to profit from the added cachet? If the add-on is permanently marked on the front cover, then a buyer can decide for themselves if they wish to collect these "fantasy" covers. However, if the add-on is marked discreetly or not at all... that is where I think we should be concerned.

If you own a cover, you CAN and SHOULD do WHATEVER you want with that cover. However, once you offer the cover for sale, that is the point I am addressing.

My opinion is that if someone markets a cover they've added a cachet to that is meant to deceive (artificially increase that covers value), then we can and should remove that member from the USCS. As far as legal precedence... is there legal precedence to remove a member who doesn't consummate a transaction... NO, but we do it to protect our members! Legal-smegal... if it’s unethical, either by not following through on your dealings or trying to deceive another member... we can and should remove them from the USCS!

As a side note, shouldn’t an add-on cachet be marked on the front of a cover? If a cover is listed on eBay by someone who isn’t aware of the cachet makers code on the back of the cover and only displays the front of the cover, then both the buyer and seller are at risk of selling/buying a misrepresented cover.

This discussion could go on forever, but we all have to admit that we DO NOT own the covers we currently possess forever… YES, we can do whatever we want with the covers we currently own, but what is our responsibility to our hobby… our club… our peers? Should we not be as ethical as possible and if not, then should we, as members of this club, allow unethical members to commingle with ethical members? YES, marking the back of a cover that has a cachet added is a step… BUT is it enough? Is it sufficient to protect the next owner(s) of that cover? Can it be removed more easily as a standalone marking on the reverse then if it were part of the cachet on the front?

Net-net… if it’s allowed by a few members of the club, then eventually it becomes acceptable behaviour. Do the 1,400 members really want to buy covers from the 30s/40s/50s that had NO philatelic value without a cachet… with a cachet added today? Are the collectors of your cachets buying your artwork or are they buying the postmark? If they’re buying your artwork, then why not add your cachets on contemporary covers-or on a plain piece of paper? Current collectors are not at risk of buying properly disclosed covers with add-on cachets… but what about the next generation?

If this topic has been discussed ad nausea for over two years, then obviously it’s a matter of concern… enough said.

Wish I had started collecting Naval covers when both my two oldest boys were in the Navy. One was in in the early eightes after a tour in the Army Reserves and number two son who went in, in '78 is career Navy, now has 26+ yrs. on active duty.

As for add-ons, my feelings is it your cover, if you want to put an add-on its up to you,but should be marked as such

Good night, gentlemen.

Generally combat ships do much better than auxilaries.

Just sold a five cover lot for $2.00 of some odd Bryce Canyon AD36 covers I picked up that I had no use for. Felt good getting the $2.00

Just had a bunch of "proof Cancels sent to me, in the lot were several from the DENEBOLA, sure brought "Sully" to mind in a hurray, used to send him any thing I picked up from that old gal

I was telling Paul Helman I was hoping to get enough covers cheaply enough to setup at the Oregon show next year.

I was reading John Young's 'Navophilately Before the USCS, 1930-32' on the USCS site and saw that they were selling cachet covers for $1 each in the early 30s! Just think, 70+ years later and the USS Oregon Chapter is selling cachet covers for the same price... what a BARGAIN!

What got you into collecting Naval Covers??

That sounds like a good plan

Hope you found some covers under the tree this year!

Here's to good finds at the Oregon show this year!

Hope you mates had a good Christmas

That was a great photo of the SULLIVANS

But it would be real nice to hear from some of the USCS members who are big time sellers on E-Bay